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Title: Jesus Never Lived, Speaker Says
Source: daily.stanford.edu
URL Source: http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?pag ... =20720&repository=0001_article
Published: May 31, 2006
Author: By Rahul Kanakia
Post Date: 2006-06-03 06:14:29 by Mind_Virus
Keywords: None
Views: 158
Comments: 14

Jesus Never Lived, Speaker Says

Rational Thought Brings Religious Scholar to campus

By Rahul Kanakia Opinions Columnist Wednesday, May 31, 2006 last updated May 31, 2006 1:39 AM

Questions about Jesus and his life have dominated popular culture in recent weeks with the premiere of “The Da Vinci Code” film, based on the novel that alleges Christ had a child. In this climate of religious dialogue, Richard Carrier, a graduate student in ancient history at Columbia University, told members of the student group Rational Thought that Jesus never existed in a speech last night at the Math Building.

The highly-controversial speech stood in contrast to accepted Christian theology and religious-academic thought. Most scholars accept that there was a historical Jesus, who is the basis of the Christian religion, though he may or may not have exhibited any special abilities.

But a small number of academics, including Carrier, argue that there was never even a historical Jesus. They believe that the biblical apostle Paul founded Christianity, and in his conception, Jesus was an incorporeal, allegorical figure. Later, they say, Christians came to believe that Jesus was an actual person and added various biographical details.

As evidence of his claim, Carrier pointed to Paul’s epistles, which are the oldest books in the New Testament.

“Paul never discusses Jesus’ family, his deeds, where he went or where he came from,” Carrier said. “He never discusses any of his confrontations with the authorities, nor any disputes about what he taught. He says Jesus became flesh, was crucified and buried, but he never says when or where or positions these events in any historical context.”

According to Carrier, this omission only makes sense if Jesus was originally understood to be a fictional, heavenly figure. Carrier described the process by which he believes Jesus came to be seen as a historical person.

“Jesus was originally perceived as a heavenly being whose death and reincarnation took place in heaven and was made known secretly in the Old Testament,” he said. “And in the early first century this secret was communicated by revelation to Paul, who preached widely. This message about Jesus was then mythified, just as other mystery cults had done with their gods.

“By the end of the first century,” Carrier continued, “some Christians had come to believe that the myths were real and assumed that Jesus was a real person. This sect of Christians eventually gained the political advantage and became what we know as orthodox Christianity, which only preserved texts that agreed with their interpretation and sometimes even forged or altered texts to advance their views.”

Carrier said that the Gospel of Mark was written nearly 60 years after the purported death of Jesus, and that the other three Gospels borrowed heavily from this book. The version of Jesus’ life given in the Gospel contains many elements that are usually found in the lives of mythical figures, he said.

“Jesus conforms so closely to the criterion of a mythic hero the probability that he was a mythic hero increases substantially,” he said. “There are 22 features that have been identified by scholars that are commonly shared by many mythic heroes. They can be ranked with a score according to how many features they have. Jesus clearly scores at least 19 out of 22.”

According to Carrier, Jesus shares many of the following mythic traits, including a virgin birth and divine lineage. An attempt is made to kill him when he is a baby. He is spirited away from those plotting his murder. He is reared in a foreign country. He is crowned king. He reigns over a period of peace. He prescribes laws. He then loses favor with the gods or his subjects. He meets with a mysterious death. He dies at the top of a hill. His body turns up missing.

Jesus scores higher on this scale than almost all other heroes, including Hercules and Romulus, Carrier said. Only Oedipus scores higher.

“Jesus competes for second place only with Theseus and Moses,” he said. “Everyone who scores more than 11 on this scale is most likely mythical. No historical figures who accumulated some of these features by chance or legend, such as Alexander the Great or Augustus Caesar, scores even as high as 11.”

Carrier pointed out that, in the ancient world, mythological figures often underwent the process of “historicization.”

“This had actually become a trend,” Carrier said. “It is called ‘Euhemerisation.’ Euhemerus wrote a work of fiction called the Sacred Scriptures in which he showed an imaginary scholar who had found out that Zeus and Uranus were real historical kings.

“Aesop was probably never a real person nor are any of the biographies about him likely to be genuine,” Carrier continued. “Instead, Aesop was most likely invented in order to assign a name to a growing collection of fables passed down from numerous oral sources.

“Historical facts were then invented about this Aesop and then many detailed biographies were written that are similar in many ways to the gospels.” Carrier added. “Like Jesus, Aesop was renowned as a challenger to power. He came from a lowly background, yet was renowned as a cultural hero. And he was regarded as a martyr; he was executed by the priests of Delphi for denouncing their greed.”

Despite this evidence, Carrier was quick to point out that this is just a theory.

“We need to go out and interact with the community and see if it stands up to the evidence,” he said. “I’m not here declaring that this is absolutely true and it would be foolish to deny it. We’re not at that stage yet.

“The normal procedure is to assume that a person who is claimed to be historical is historical,” he continued, “unless there is a reason to doubt it. I believe this is an appropriate principle. For example, merely lacking evidence is not enough of an argument for someone not existing historically. You need actual evidence for them being mythified.”

Martin Mueller, a fifth-year graduate student in physics, organized the talk as the head of Rational Thought.

“When I first came here to Stanford,” Mueller said, “I was surprised that there wasn’t a student group specifically for students who are secular, for students who do not subscribe to any religious beliefs. This is a forum for those sorts of issues.

“In the general population, the word atheist has a bad ring to it,” he added. “But we just use it for what it means. We do not believe in a god. The people that are attracted to our kinds of activities are the people who do not believe, based on the evidence, that there is a God.”

Talks like Carrier’s help Mueller and the members of Rational Thought formulate their beliefs, he said.

“It is very important for us, as it is for everybody,” Mueller said. “To have a reason for believing what it is we believe. It is very important for members of our organization to be able to say that we do not believe in Jesus because we do not believe he existed or we do not believe he existed as he was in the Gospels.”

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#1. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

2+2=5

down is up

up is down

Red Jones  posted on  2006-06-03   6:27:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

It is very possible Jesus did not exist and I have always suspected as much. Good piece, thanks for posting it.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-06-03   6:58:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Red Jones (#1)

He puts more emphasis on Paul than I have ever heard anyone do.

I always thought the first extant writings about the life of Jesus Christ were postulated as the "Q" documents, (short for German "Quelle" meaning "source" documents) which became the basis for the Gospel of Mark. I believe this predated or was at least contemporaneous with Paul's epistles.

I do agree that the redneck literalists in the South have taken this "If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus Christ, it ought to be good enough for us today" argument to absurd extremes.

It is difficult to admit to ourselves as residents of the so-called "world's only superpower" and "greatest nation in history" that the dominant Zeitgeist and principal poliitical force of the U.S. is found in suburban "nondenominational" megachurches preaching a literal interpretation of a book that has been translated and retranslated numerous times.

But once we do admit this, we can easily explain why the U.S. is rapidly declining as a power and will soon be no different than a country such as Brazil. Brazil with 10,000 nukes. However, without the energy independence and self-sufficiency in ethanol Brazil has achieved.

Sam Houston  posted on  2006-06-03   7:08:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

There are many mentions of Jesus and his followers in Roman writings of the day(from a different perspective, of course).

Rabble Rouser  posted on  2006-06-03   7:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

The first church historian was named Eusebius. He actually found a plow that had been made by the carpenter Jesus. James, the Just, who was the source of the Book of James, was the brother (most likely adopted) of Jesus. When the emperor in Rome heard that Jesus had 2 nephews un Israel, he had them taken to him for an audience. The two men said they were Jewish and supported Caesar despite the teachings of their grand uncle. Convinced of their loaylty the emepror allowed them to return home. Their journey took two years.

The oldest document on Jesus might be the teachings of Mary Magdalene, who in my opinion and of many scholars, was the disciple whom Jesus loved. Her original gospel or teachings were rewritten by the early church so John became the favorite. It was Mary Magdalene who was the one who understood him the best but we do not have her original work. The Gospel of Mary Magdalene that we do have was rewritten by the Gnostics and does not reflect her views either.

Jesus was to be the first born of many brethren which is to say a Christian was to be like Jesus Christ. I have not yet seen the second one like Jesus. That is the major problem with Christianity today.

Horse  posted on  2006-06-03   9:51:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

“Paul never discusses Jesus’ family, his deeds, where he went or where he came from,” Carrier said. “He never discusses any of his confrontations with the authorities, nor any disputes about what he taught. He says Jesus became flesh, was crucified and buried, but he never says when or where or positions these events in any historical context.”

I think that's a jump to a rather lame conclusion.

christine  posted on  2006-06-03   10:00:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

We have the words of Jesus himself in the Gospels. Paul's words are his own, and his own ideas and interpretations of Christ. I don't go along with Paul on everything as he was just a man. A great man, maybe, but still a man. But we can always go back and read the words of Jesus himself and those are pretty clear to me. I still just use many of the phrases he came up with such as "by their fruit shall ye know them", "a man can't serve two masters", "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul". There is eternal truth and wisdom here.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-06-03   11:19:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Red Jones (#1)

2+2=5

down is up

up is down

Even non-Christian religions recognize he lived, like Islam, Judaism.

There is quite an assault on the tenets of Christendom in the media now.

No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. – James Madison

robin  posted on  2006-06-03   11:23:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

What he is apparently doing is saying Christ made all of these claims, or at least others are saying Christ made these claims. Other mythical figures made simialar claims. Their existence is in question. Therefore, Christ's existence is in question. There is enough evidence to prove Christ lived. The only question remains is does one accept the claims? That is each person's own call to make.

Do you know the Samaritan's name, the woman at the well? It is not recorded anywhere. Her name is Photina. Do you know the name of the thief on the cross who repented? His name is Dysmas. It is not recorded in Bible either. How do we know this among other things? Oral Tradition. Christianity for much of the first 500 years was passed down through the Oral Tradition as copies of the Scriptures were scarce. Especially during the first two centuries, a church would have been forutunate to have a collection of Old Testament scriptures and maybe, maybe a Gospel or an Epistle. And even in the case of the last two, those would not have appeared until mid to late first century. St Paul wrote mostly about specific issues that were going on in that specific church. It doesn't appear often, but often enough to note its importance that St Paul does tell people to remember the Traditions they have been taught. The most famous of these is his statement to Timothy to remember the things he was taught as a child and to know the Scriptures are God-breathed. When St Paul was writing, enough of the Disciples were still alive; enough of the original witnesses/followers still alive that it would have been redundant for him to rehash the whole life of Christ to an audience which already knew all of that. Information/teaching which they had already recieved through the very Disciples/followers themselves- the Oral Tradition. I think people forget this in today's world. Like someone else said above, folks look at the King James Bible and assume that's it to the Christian faith. Nevermind there were others writing in the first century and early second century who were taught by the Disciples themselves or by St Paul.

My other thoughts on the matter are that if a historical Jesus (let's leave aside his claims for the moment) NEVER existed, I fail to see how Christianity would have made it out of the first century. It would have been awful hard to pull off a hoax of this magnitude. Think about some of the religious hoaxes we have seen in our own lifetime. Even in todays age of quick access to media and information, a hoax can last for a few years, maybe even several, before eventually getting called out. Yes, I am aware of the Roman Catholic Pope who said it is all a fraud. My respone to that is the entire body of weight of the Eastern and Coptic Churches who begs to differ. There are the historians Tacitus and Josephus (with one disputed quote and one not) who speak of the existence of Christ.

"People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people." -- V

scooter  posted on  2006-06-03   12:46:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: scooter, *Bereans* (#9)

Well said.

Acknowledging Jesus as Lord and Savior is a matter of faith, but recognizing Jesus' earthly existence is a matter of historical record:

Josephus, Jewish Antiqities (english) (18,63)

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

[63] Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Josephus, Jewish Antiquities (english) 20, 200

CONCERNING ALBINUS UNDER WHOSE PROCURATORSHIP JAMES WAS SLAIN; AS ALSO WHAT EDIFICES WERE BUILT BY AGRIPPA.

[197] AND now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, 1 who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.

Mara bar Sarapion (see page 21-22)

"What good did it do the Athenians to kill Socrates, for which deed they were punished with famine and pestilence? What did it avail the Samians to burn Pythagoras, since their country was entirely buried under sand in one moment? Or what did it avail the Jews to kill their wise king , since their kingdom was taken away from them from that time on?

God justly avenged these three wise men. The Athenians died of famine, the Samians were flooded by the sea, the Jews were slaughtered and driven from their kingdom, everywhere living in the dispersion.

Socrates is not dead, thanks to Plato; nor Pythagoras, because of Hera's statue. Nor is the wise king, because of the new law he has given."

John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew (New York: Doubleday, 1991), 1:25.

(this letter is supposedly in the British Museum)

Pliny, Governor of Bithynia: Letter to the Emperor Trajan

...These first said they were Christians, then denied it, insisting they had been, "but were so no longer"; some of them having "recanted many years ago," and more than one "full twenty years back. " These all worshiped your image and the god's statues and cursed the name of Christ. But they declared their guilt or error was simply this---on a fixed day they used to meet before dawn and recite a hymn among themselves to Christ, as though he were a god. So far from binding themselves by oath to commit any crime, they swore to keep from theft, robbery, adultery, breach of faith, and not to deny any trust money deposited with them when called upon to deliver it. This ceremony over, they used to depart and meet again to take food---but it was of no special character, and entirely harmless. They also had ceased from this practice after the edict I issued---by which, in accord with your orders, I forbade all secret societies.

Suetonius, Claudius (25.4)

Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Another form of Christus; see Tert. Apol. 3 (at the end ). It is uncertain whether Suetonius is guilty of an error in chronology or is referring to some Jew of that name. The former seems probable because of the absence of "quodam". Tacitus, Ann. 15.44, uses the correct form, Christus, and states that he was executed in the reign of Tiberius], he expelled them from Rome.

Tacitus, Annales (15, 44)

Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin (43a)

AND A HERALD PRECEDES HIM etc. This implies, only immediately before [the execution], but not previous thereto. [In contradiction to this] it was taught: On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!52; Ulla retorted: 'Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith [enticer], concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him? With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government [or royalty, i.e., influential].'

Our Rabbis taught: Yeshu had five disciples, Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-06-03   14:18:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Starwind (#10)

Thank you! That's a keeper!

Here's another one from the Talmudists:

Who Was Jesus?

http://noahide.com/yeshu.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-06-03   15:26:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: robin (#8)

There is quite an assault on the tenets of Christendom in the media now.

IMO, that would be due to verses such as Isaiah 65:15 and Revelation 5:9-10.

[who owns the media. certainly not Christians.]

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-06-03   16:40:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Starwind (#10)

Josephus, Jewish Antiqities (english) (18,63)

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

[63] Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

That's the disputed quote. I agree there were additions made to this quote by Josephus by perhaps Eusibus himself to render a more favorable opinion of Christ.

[63] Now there was about this time Jesus [who] drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

My complete uneducated guess is that the above is probably more in line with what he really stated. Regardless, like you stated above, there is more than enough ample evidence to support Christ living. Again, the only question remains is if one accepts the claims.

"People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people." -- V

scooter  posted on  2006-06-04   3:33:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Starwind, Mind_Virus (#10)

I have no way of verifying the following, which I just ran across. Ever since the Libray of Congress was taken from the Legislative Branch, and given to the Executive Branch under Clinton [no longer the Library of Congress, but the Library of the President], I feel things have probably been expunged to mesh with the planned NWO, gone by the wayside, along with the Original 13th Amendment. Nevertheless: ]

LETTER TO TIBERIUS CAESAR FROM PONTIUS PILATE [regarding Jesus]

http://www.ensignmessag e.com/archives/letter.html

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-06-06   13:07:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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