4um: Cheney Shotgun Ballistics Don't Match Up

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In
National News
See other National News Articles
Title: Cheney Shotgun Ballistics Don't Match Up
Source: prisonplanet.com
URL Source: http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/150206matchup.htm
Published: Feb 15, 2006
Author: Alex Jones
Post Date: 2006-02-15 22:35:37 by Coral Snake
Keywords: Ballistics, Shotgun, Cheney
Views: 2742
Comments: 53

Cheney Shotgun Ballistics Don't Match Up
Alex Jones/Prison http://Planet.com | February 15 2006
What we had deducted almost immediately after Cheney machine began rolling on this shooting is now finally starting to filter out into the rest of the media: It is not only unlikely that Whittington was injured in the way he reportedly was if Cheney had shot him from 30 yards it is impossible.
After reviewing the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife report on the shooting, there is no doubt that this is a cover-up.
The pattern of the birdshot depicted in the diagram on the report indicates about a foot spread from cheek to chest.
As we previously reported, birdshot is not like a traditional bullet. Birdshot is composed of hundreds of tiny lead BB's with very low mass which are designed to spread out and slow down very quickly. The idea is basically to shoot out a bunch of tiny pellets to catch a bird that may be taking wing at the instant it recognizes the shot has been fired. Many points ensure greater likelyhood of hitting the target.
These pellets are incredibly tiny and the further they get away from the gun, the slower and less forceful they become. So at a distance of about 90 feet (or 30 yards as reported by the White House) the pellets would have hit Whittington with the force equivilent to a gentle shove and have left maybe some tiny surface marks on any exposed skin.
The only way to account for the pattern indicated on the TDPW report is if Cheney was about 10 feet away from Whittington when he shot him.

Click to Enlarge
Reports and press releases that followed the event explained that some of the pellets had become lodged in his heart tissue. The only way this is possible, the only way that the tiny pellets designed to spread over distance could have maintained the force necessary to penetrate Whittington's hunting vest, clothing, skin, muscle, bone and finally into his rock-hard heart would have been if they came from a much shorter distance than the White House is claiming.
The initial reports have Whittington making jokes and feeling fine after the shooting, but doctors would have been able to diagnose with a simple x-ray that there was a chunk of metal in his heart tissue immediately upon receiving him. Now that he has taken a turn for the worse, they are in scramble-mode to cover-up what really happened in case he dies.
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#1. To: Coral Snake (#0)
Whittington is going to die.

Fred Mertz posted on 2006-02-15 22:45:50 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#2. To: Fred Mertz (#1)
Whittington is going to die.

Unfortunately I agree with that. If he has pellets lodged in his VEINS - sufficient to give him a heart attack, I doubt if they can be removed (not all of them anyway) and he's liable to get another heart attack or stroke. Possibly pneumonia from an infection. If it doesn't happen in the next few days, I still think it's pretty inevitable. Obviously I don't want this to happen to the poor fellow, but I don't see how someone can go around with little pieces of birdshot in their veins.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-15 22:47:58 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#3. To: Coral Snake (#0)
Personally I think Cheney was drinking - possibly drunk, which might not take much alcohol with the medications he's undoubtedly on - and he may just have lost his temper with Whittington and shot him deliberately. This looks like a deliberate thing to me - not planned, but a flare of temper. That's my two cents anyway.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-15 22:49:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#4. To: Coral Snake (#0)
It is not only unlikely that Whittington was injured in the way he reportedly was if Cheney had shot him from 30 yards it is impossible.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0602/15/sitroom.02.html
THE SITUATION ROOM
Cheney Says Nobody Else Can Be Blamed In Hunting Accident; More Photos Released of Abu Ghraib Abuse; Chertoff In The Hot Seat Over Katrina Response; Cheney Far From First Or Last Washington Figure To Face Glare Of This Particular Spotlight; Condoleezza Rice Grilled On Capitol Hill; Is America Losing Battle For Hearts And Minds In Muslim World?
Aired February 15, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's almost 5:00 p.m. here in Washington, and you're in THE SITUATION ROOM, where news and information from around the world arrive at one place at the same time.
Happening now, Vice President Cheney breaks his silence and takes the blame for shooting a hunting companion, saying -- and I'm quoting now -- "I'm the guy who pulled the trigger." But can he make the case that his misfire wasn't mishandled?
* * *
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: ... Do we have any time, Wolf? Can I just offer a thought on the Cheney thing real quick?
BLITZER: Yes, go ahead.
CAFFERTY: If we had a gun expert on, a 28-gauge shotgun firing very small birdshot -- they said the shot was fired from a distance of about 30 yards, and yet one of those pellets made it through the clothing, through the chest wall and into the heart muscle.
I don't know a whole lot about shotguns, but I know a little. And it would seem to me -- and I'd be -- I'd love to hear a gun expert talk about this -- that you might have to be closer to [sic - than] 30 yards for a piece of birdshot, number 8 or number 9 size birdshot, to go that deeply into a human being. A 28-gauge is not the most powerful shotgun. A 10-gauge, 12- gauge, 16-gauge, 20-gauge, 28-gauge and then 410. So, it's next to the weakest. Just a thought, but we ought to maybe try to round up a gun expert and ask him some questions.
BLITZER: And he was asked today if it was about 30 yards and he said he didn't measure it, but that would be a fair estimate in his opinion.
CAFFERTY: Just a thought.
BLITZER: All right. Let's see what the experts out there say.
CAFFERTY: Just trying to help, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Jack Cafferty.

nolu_chan posted on 2006-02-15 23:24:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#5. To: Coral Snake (#0)
These pellets are incredibly tiny and the further they get away from the gun, the slower and less forceful they become. So at a distance of about 90 feet (or 30 yards as reported by the White House) the pellets would have hit Whittington with the force equivilent to a gentle shove and have left maybe some tiny surface marks on any exposed skin.

Interesting info on Birdshot here:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?
We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.
A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.
In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.
Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.
Hmmmm...maybe someone should have this fellow pepper a styrofoam dummy in full hunting gear at 30 yards with birdshot and see what happens.
"The more I see of life, the less I fear death" - Me.
Pissed Off Janitor posted on 2006-02-15 23:38:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#6. To: Pissed Off Janitor, Coral Snake (#5)
SHOTGUN BALLISTICS
Athena website
Athena Research & Consulting LLC
Wound & Terminal Ballistics
The Business End of Things
Introduction
The ultimate objective of any weapons system is to deliver a payload to the intended target. If you fail in that objective, then you may as well not have the weapon at all. In the case of rockets, motors, and artillery ammunition, the payload is generally a chemical one (i.e. explosives).
In the case of smallarms (hand held weapons) the payload is usually just the projectile itself - the kinetic energy is delivered to the target. Smallarms include rifles, pistols and shotguns. Rifles and pistols usually deliver only one large projectile, whilst shotguns usually deliver a large number of smaller projectiles. A vast range of shotgun ammunition is available.
There are general widespread misconceptions as to the effectiveness of these smallarms - against both soft and hard targets. These misconceptions have arisen primarily because of the exaggerated weapon performance depicted in most movies and TV shows. Sometimes people just misinterpret scientific data and get the wrong idea when it comes to weapon performance. There are physical limitations as to what you can achieve with hand held weapons.
Note that the term 'soft target' refers to living creatures, and the term 'hard target' refers to vehicles, walls, and the like.
* * *
The author has reviewed data relating to many animal tests (pigs & sheep), wounds to military personnel, and wounds to civilians. These wounds were caused by many different calibers; and included rifles, handguns, and shotguns.
The author has concluded that (in broad terms) the key criteria for lethality are penetration and kinetic energy. Basically, a bullet must penetrate the target deeply enough to reach vital structures / organs; and it requires kinetic energy to do damage to those structures. If a bullet penetrates the body completely, then any residual kinetic energy is wasted - carried downrange with the bullet.
* * *
Shotguns are widely believed to be very lethal, and at close range this is certainly true because the multiple projectiles cause multiple wound tracks over a small area - often resulting in one large hole. However, the pellets must be large enough so that each one has sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate to vital areas. Basically, bird shot (7 1/2, for example) can only be guaranteed to be lethal to a range of about 5 yards, beyond 10 yards, or so, the wounds may look severe, but be relatively superficial due to the lack of penetration of individual pellets. Large buckshot pellets will be lethal at considerable range, but practical accuracy, and excessive spread, will limit their effective range to around 40 to 60 yards, depending upon choke and individual weapon characteristics. Those who choose to cut down their shotgun barrel diminish lethality considerably, because they may reduce the overall kinetic energy delivered by a given cartridge by as much as 50%.
Figure 1 shows a human arm which was injured by a 12 gage shotgun at just 10 yards. The shot size was #6, and the shotgun barrel had been sawn down (length not known, but probably around 14"). Note that pellets are spread over a large area (cartridge contained almost 400) and that they had insufficient energy to penetrate much below the surface of the skin - the silver pellets are visible.
[Figure 1 - 12 gage shotgun blast to arm. Range 10 yards, #6 shot]
Full size image

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=695568
http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1238294&blobtype=pdf
Trauma Rounds Chief Discussant JAMES M. WILSON, MD Refer to: Wilson JM: Shotgun ballistics and shotgun injuries (Trauma Rounds -- San Francisco General Hospital). West J Med 129:149-155, Aug 1978
Editors DONALD D. TRUNKEY, MD F. WILLIAM BLAISDELL, MD
Shotgun Ballistics and Shotgun Injuries
This is one of a series of Conferences on Trauma at San Francisco General Hospital
* * *
Sponsored by the American College of Surgeons Northern California Trauma Committee. Supported in part by NIH Grant GM18470.
[Excerpts]
The choke of a given shotgun designates the amount of constriction at the end of the weapon barrel, and it is the choke that actually determines the shot pattern at a given distance from the muzzle. The constriction acts much like the nozzle on a garden hose which, when partially constricted, gives a narrow stream of water for maximum shooting distance for a given, constant pressure. Full choke (or tight constriction), modified choke and cylinder bore (or no constriction) constitute the three basic types of barrels. A full-choke barrel will force approximately 70 percent of the pellets in a charge into a pattern circle with a 30-inch diameter at a 40-yard range; modified choke gives 60 percent and cylinder choke propels only 40 percent of the pellets into this circle pattern area. The velocity of the individual pellets is affected very little by choke or barrel length. Consequently, the choke of the barrel will directly affect the pattern or concentration of the pellets. Obviously, range will be the main determinant of the actual target pattern using any given choke.
* * *
When one studies the kinetic energy of pellets fired at different ranges, it becomes apparent why shotgun charges and rifle projectiles behave so differently at ranges over a few yards. At a range of 40 yards -- a small distance for a high-powered rifle -- shotgun pellets would have lost more than half of their original energy.
* * *
A person struck by a single pellet which is smaller than bb size is seldom seriously injured unless hit in the eye. As noted previously, most serious human wounds occur at ranges much closer than 20 yards where most of the total pellet charge hits the victim. Again, range is the most important determinant of the amount of damage inflicted by a given shotgun charge. The range can be estimated in about 80 percent of shotgun cases, as can the type of shot used -- whether small (like No. 6) or large (like 00 buck).
* * *
Once the approximate range is ascertained, an intelligent approach to wound management can be formulated. Sherman and Parrish [3] have classified shotgun wounds into three categories:
Type I shotgun injuries. These are sustained at long range (greater than 7 yards). This would correspond to an across-the-street injury and such wounds involve penetration of subcutaneous tissue or deep fascia.
Type II shotgun injuries. These are sustained at close range (3 to 7 yards). They correspond to across-the-room range injuries. These types of wounds usually involve structures deep to the fascia.
Type III shotgun injuries. These are sustained at a very close range, that is, less than 3 yards. These wounds usually involve massive tissue destruction and correspond to more or less point-blank range injuries.
Type I injuries usually produce a scatter type wound. At 40 yards, however, a No 6 shot blast has lost most of its energy and thus penetrates minimally to moderate distances (Figure 1). At ranges of 20 yards or more, these small shot may penetrate the abdomen and cause an incredible number of holes in the bowel.
* * *
Type II injuries which penetrate the chest can be managed most often by chest-tube drainage. One must be on the alert, however, for cardiac injury with subsequent tamponade and for major vessel injury. Angiography should be used liberally as part of the evaluation process.
* * *

nolu_chan posted on 2006-02-16 2:06:47 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#7. To: mehitable, robin, aristeides, christine (#3)
Al Franken (who, of course, would be on the defense/damage control team had this been a Democrat) made a good point last night.
Someone who shoots a friend or acquanitance on a hurting trip and knows it was an accident and out of guilt, human compassion, fear or whatever WOULD CERTAINLY immediately go to the hospital UNLESS the shooter was drinking/drunk or a monumental jerk or BOTH.
I tink Cheney had way too much to drink and shot Whittington at very close range.
As an aside, I wonder what the secret service would do if Cheney was raping a little girl or pistol whipping an old lady for her purse. Just how far will the secret service go in its "protection"?
In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.
wbales posted on 2006-02-16 7:46:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#8. To: Coral Snake, All (#0)
~2 days ago TLBSHOW posted these images from http://www.thesmokinggun.com on http://www.PostLiberty.com, along with a pic of the Italian gun used, but I wasn't sure of their authenticity, so didn't repost them anywhere. I guess http://www.prisonplanet.com thinks they are authentic.

Click to Enlarge
"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell
robin posted on 2006-02-16 10:07:54 ET (3 images) Reply Trace Private Reply
#9. To: nolu_chan (#6)
good post, nolu. thanks!
"It's an Inside Job"
christine posted on 2006-02-16 10:12:53 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#10. To: nolu_chan (#6)
Basically, bird shot (7 1/2, for example) can only be guaranteed to be lethal to a range of about 5 yards, beyond 10 yards, or so, the wounds may look severe, but be relatively superficial due to the lack of penetration of individual pellets.

...and the close proximity of the pellets or cluster pattern, indicates a closer range too, from what I've read.
"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell
robin posted on 2006-02-16 10:21:26 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#11. To: robin (#10)
If the penetration and the dispersal pattern indicate a distance of, say, 10 feet, is that so significantly different from what was reported to us (and thus presumably to the authorities) that we can talk about obstruction of justice and material lying to the authorities? Is it criminal in itself? And does it constitute strong evidence that the shooting itself was criminal in some way?

aristeides posted on 2006-02-16 10:39:44 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#12. To: Coral Snake, Zipporah, all (#0)
I was listening to Sydney Blumenthal, former senior Clinton aide, this morning and he gave some additional background on how the Armstrongs basically gave Cheney and Rove their careers - they hired or funded both of them. Blumenthal made one point though that I had not really considered before and which is quite striking when you think about it. Cheney is a pretty sick fellow with his heart problems. He's probably taking medications, and he's frequently wearing two different shoes because his feet become largers sizes because of the circulatory problems, and he is now at least sometimes walking with a cane.
Can we reasonably expect this man to have the agility required to hear a sound at twilight, spin around 180 degrees and unknowningly shoot Whittington in the face and chest with these pellets with such force it penetrated his winter clothing? I tried doing an experiment this morning. I'm overweight and pretty klutzy and I tried pretending I was holding a shotgun and spinning around 180 degrees and I just don't know how plausible the "accident" scenario would be. Cheney would have had to had his finger right on the trigger so he just shot as soon as he turned around because he would surely have seen WHittington standing right there. Blumenthal seemed to be implying that he didn't buy the accident story - and ya know what? Neither do I. But who's gonna investigate this?

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 10:43:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#13. To: aristeides (#11)
If the penetration and the dispersal pattern indicate a distance of, say, 10 feet, is that so significantly different from what was reported to us (and thus presumably to the authorities) that we can talk about obstruction of justice and material lying to the authorities? Is it criminal in itself? And does it constitute strong evidence that the shooting itself was criminal in some way?

The local sheriff's "investigation" was amazingly quick, and appeared to be nothing more than taking statements from eyewitnesses.
The ballistic evidence and credibility of the eyewitnesses' statements is only being checked and analyzed at blogs and websites like this one.
"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell
robin posted on 2006-02-16 10:52:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#14. To: mehitable (#12)
From Salon

AP Photo/Paul Iverson
A gate blocks the main entrance to the Armstrong Ranch in Texas, where Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot fellow hunter Harry Whittington on Feb. 11, 2006.

Shoot first, avoid questions later
The White House's secretive response to Cheney's misfire cannot be understood apart from the society of Texas royalty.

By Sidney Blumenthal
"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell
robin posted on 2006-02-16 10:58:32 ET (1 image) Reply Trace Private Reply
#15. To: mehitable (#12)
If the official story is wrong, a proper forensic investigation (of things like the trajectory of the pellets) would almost certainly make that clear.

aristeides posted on 2006-02-16 10:59:07 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#16. To: Coral Snake (#0)
Just the time delay on the report is "obstruction of justice."
Here's the catch - when did the hospital report the shooting? (Or, did they?)
Was the hospital in the same county?
How did they get an ambulance, without a 9-11 call, identifying the problem to a wide range of police authorities?
Why didn't the State authorities get into the scene?
There's a lot wrong in this picture - including making false statements.
BUT - will anyone care?

SKYDRIFTER posted on 2006-02-16 10:59:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#17. To: aristeides, all (#15)
proper forensic investigation

That's the problem. Who in Texas is going to conduct such a thing for the Vice President of the United States, Richard Cheney?
This event has proven two things: that Dick Cheney actually has been running the country (yeah, WE know that, but I think the way this was handled clearly demonstrates it), and that this administration can literally get away with shooting a 78 year old man in the face and imperiling his life. If he dies, they'll get away with that too.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 11:04:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#18. To: SKYDRIFTER (#16)
Maybe they'll care if they see a pattern of arrogance that willfully ignores the Constitution. Like this Executive Order that Cheney's claims gives him the right to declassify info mentioned on a thread today. And the "Shoot First" mentality that got us in the mess called the Iraq War.
"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell
robin posted on 2006-02-16 11:04:06 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#19. To: robin, lodwick, Arator, ALL (#18)
Alex Jones is going to do a 28 gauge shotgun experiment today.
"It's an Inside Job"
christine posted on 2006-02-16 11:08:01 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#20. To: christine, mehitable, aristeides, MUDDOG, Dakmar, alpowolf, BTP Holdings, Itisa1mosttoolate, Peetie Wheatstraw, Kamala (#19)
Alex Jones is going to do a 28 gauge shotgun experiment today.

Should be fun ping!
Thanks christine!
"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell
robin posted on 2006-02-16 11:14:00 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#21. To: aristeides (#15)
There are so many holes in this story. I think this is Cheney's swan song.
Do you believe he was hunting with his mistress? Do you believe Lynne Cheney cancelled at the last minute?

Fred Mertz posted on 2006-02-16 11:15:17 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#22. To: christine, all (#19)
I think there are a number of things to be considered in this case:
the time of day (odd time to go on a canned hunt - sounds like they just got liquored up and had the sudden urge to kill something)
the make up of the hunting party (less important but given the hypocrisy of the Bush people, Mrs. Willeford's presence is "interesting")
the amount/type of liquor consumed (as Mrs. Armstrong and even Cheney admits adult beverages were in evidence at some point)
What kinds of medications is Cheney taking that might be affected by liquor and what is his general condition? Should he be hunting at all?
Where everyone was at the time of the incident, especially for giving witness testimony (has anyone interviewed Mrs. Willeford for example? and Mrs. Armstrong apparently didn't see what happened from the car as she would not have misinterpreted the need for the ambulance if she had)
What kind of shotgun was this and could it inflict the kinds of wounds at the range we've been told?
Is Dick Cheney physically capable of accidentally turning so fast that he could shoot Mr W. 180 degrees BEHIND him without seeing him first? As a physically clumsy person I tried simulating this and I don't think I could have missed some guy standing behind me - I couldn't turn that fast and I'm not sure Lightenin' Dick can either.
There are tons of questions here. Who in authority will investigate these? We need a Columbo.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 11:16:53 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#23. To: Fred Mertz (#21)
I'm readier to believe that Cheney uses these hunting trips for secret discussions immune from bugs and eavesdropping than that he uses them for trysts.

aristeides posted on 2006-02-16 11:20:41 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#24. To: mehitable (#17)
Who in Texas is going to conduct such a thing for the Vice President of the United States, Richard Cheney?

I don't know. If Cheney is going down anyway, what better way to make your career?

aristeides posted on 2006-02-16 11:22:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#25. To: robin, christine, Zipporah, robin, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Arator, Brian S, A K A Stone, Steppenwolf, Bub, mugwort, bluegrass, Bill D Berger, FormerLurker, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, Flintlock, Neil McIver, tom007, aristeides, Burkeman1, Diana, (#18)
The jury is still out, but to get a pellet through clothing into a persons heart is a lot closer than 90 feet, in my book.
If you just go to the grouping of the bird-shot, how do you hit someone, who is not quite clearly in your vision. He saw a small bird, but didn't see the person???
For ANY shotgun, that's a small grouping, suggesting close range.
It stinks - as usual.
Calling Gorner and Grissom!

SKYDRIFTER posted on 2006-02-16 11:22:50 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#26. To: aristeides (#24)
That would still take a heap o' guts and I don't know if anyone is like that in Texas. Texas and Florida seem to be the two most corrupt Republi-bot states in the US. I would be really surprised if anyone down there was willing to take him on. There's nothing more dangerous than a wounded animal and Cheney's no doubt baring his fangs.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 11:24:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#27. To: SKYDRIFTER (#25)
I just don't see how he could have missed Whittington - just as you say. He hit him dead on. It's not like Harry got the tail end of a pellet or two - he got the full load square on. This is either incredible recklessness (negligence at the least) or he deliberately shot him for some reason. I can't see it any other way. Even when I tried simulating this just by wheeling around (and like Cheney I'm not in great condition so it's not like either of us turns around so quickly you can't see someone standing 30 yards in back of you). It's just not plausible.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 11:27:34 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#28. To: SKYDRIFTER (#25)
I also just don't see how that man could sustain such injuries from birdshot fired at 30 yards. That's just too far away. At most he might feel a bit of a sting if he even got hit at all, but nothing that would penetrate HIS CLOTHING.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 11:29:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#29. To: mehitable.christine.everyone here (#27)
I will be going to the range to conduct my own little test today using a superposed Browning Citori, 26" barrels, 2 3/4" chambers, and using the most loaded-up 7 1/2 shotshells that I can find in 28 gauge. Several manufacturers have recently introduced a magnum chamber for this gauge, but I've no idea if this was what the veep was using, or not.
Shots will be made at ten, twenty, and thirty yards at a full-size silhouette target to see the shot dispersal, but this will tell us nothing about the penetrating power of the shot.

Lod posted on 2006-02-16 11:43:19 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#30. To: mehitable (#26)
Texas and Florida seem to be the two most corrupt Republi-bot states in the US.

you got that right!
"It's an Inside Job"
christine posted on 2006-02-16 11:50:16 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#31. To: lodwick (#29)
EXCELLENT. Will be very interested in what you determine. It just doesn't seem possible to me, even as a non-hunting person, that those injuries could have been caused by birdshot at that distance in the given scenario.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 11:54:30 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#32. To: SKYDRIFTER (#25)
who are Gorner and Grissom?
"It's an Inside Job"
christine posted on 2006-02-16 11:54:40 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#33. To: lodwick (#29)
I will be going to the range to conduct my own little test today using a superposed Browning Citori, 26" barrels, 2 3/4" chambers, and using the most loaded-up 7 1/2 shotshells that I can find in 28 gauge. Several manufacturers have recently introduced a magnum chamber for this gauge, but I've no idea if this was what the veep was using, or not.
Shots will be made at ten, twenty, and thirty yards at a full-size silhouette target to see the shot dispersal, but this will tell us nothing about the penetrating power of the shot.

Have fun! I think you should repeat with one beer, then two, ...
"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell
robin posted on 2006-02-16 12:00:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#34. To: robin (#33)
Funny! ;-)
I think that I'll delay the pops until a more appropriate hour.

Lod posted on 2006-02-16 12:03:34 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#35. To: robin, lodwick (#33)
Yeah, and make sure you have a hot blonde and cold gun....
cars, guns, and ho's....it's the gangsta life for Cheney.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 12:03:51 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#36. To: mehitable.christine.everyone here (#35)
Crapolla.

Our indoor range doesn't allow shot to be fired: they told me that it really screws up the pulleys, etc that move the targets from the shooter's station to whatever distance you wish to blast.
Luckily, I took another piece and had a good time practicing with it.
On the way home, I heard Alex Jones' outstanding report of his experiment this morning. Sounds like big dick's story is indeed full of holes.
What else would be new with this regime?

Lod posted on 2006-02-16 13:47:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#37. To: lodwick (#36)
What would we do without Alex Jones? He's a national treasure. I'm surprised they've let him live so long.

mehitable posted on 2006-02-16 13:48:56 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#38. To: mehitable (#37)
He's a national treasure. I'm surprised they've let him live so long.

Amen to both.

Lod posted on 2006-02-16 13:51:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#39. To: christine (#32)
TV crime scene investogators. CSI & Law & Order - Criminal Intent.

SKYDRIFTER posted on 2006-02-17 2:51:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#40. To: SKYDRIFTER, lodwick, duckhunter, ALL, Alex's Jones Experiment Video Proof Cheney's Story is a Lie (#39)
Cl ick here to watch. It's 10 minutes.

christine posted on 2006-02-17 10:37:54 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

.
.
.
Comments (41 - 53) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

Freedom4um

Shoot first, avoid questions later